#122: The embodied faith of our grandmothers (with Kat Armas)
Kat Armas comes to the show this week to discuss embodiment, the sacredness of survival, and the faith of our grandmothers. Kat argues that our grandmothers, especially abuelitas in Latine cultures, function as live-in ministers particularly because the privilege to receive formal religious instruction is often unavailable. We all miss out on the unique, embodied, ways of knowing truth and practicing wisdom when we don’t turn our gaze to these figures who have been in our lives since before we were born. Kat’s book is called, Abuelita Faith: What Women on the Margins Teach us About Wisdom, Persistence, and Strength, and it’s excellent. Check it out below!
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Transcription
Kat Armas 00:00
We miss out when we don't sit and reflect on the sacredness of those moments and the sacredness of yeah, just her body and her holding you and her even, you know, folding an envelope and standing in front of a fax machine. I mean, I believe and sort of what I'm arguing in Abuelita Faith is that's where God is! You know, that's where God is moving and working. And in those sacred, seemingly ordinary, but not at all ordinary. You know, God is intimately acquainted with our grandmothers in those moments and just in life in general.
Jonathan Puddle 00:37
Hey, friends, welcome back to The Puddcast with me, Jonathan puddle. This is episode 122. My guest this week is a brand new friend. Her name is Kat Armas. She is the author of Abuelita Faith: What Women on the Margins Teach us About Wisdom, Persistence, and Strength. If you listened to last week's interview with Michael F. Bird, he said one of the really important things we need to do is to read deeply in our own tradition, and then to read outside of our own tradition. And so this week, and the next episode of The Puddcast will be focusing on bringing in stories outside of our own and helping us lean into the wisdom and truth that can be held in different kinds of ways, especially if we're wanting to move away from an empirical kind of truth lens as we discussed with Brian Zahnd. And then again with Mike Bird. So I'm thrilled that I get to bring Kat Armas to you today if you don't know her, she is wonderful. Kat is a Cuban American writer and speaker she hosts The Protagonistas podcast. She holds a Master's of Divinity and a Master of Arts in Teaching. She knows her stuff. She has written for a great many different magazines and outlets. And I really think you're gonna enjoy what she has to share with us today. She is also a brand new mom, she was pregnant when we recorded this and recently had a baby. So have a listen to this. And then make sure you go and follow her, @kat_armas on Instagram. And there'll be much more details of course in the show notes along with the transcription for this episode. Here we go. Kat Armas, I'm so glad to welcome you to the show. I've been just following you for a little while on Instagram, and just been reading through this beautiful book Abuelita Faith, and I'm really enjoying it. I'm glad to get to know you. Welcome to The Puddcast.
Kat Armas 02:34
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here and to be able to chat with you about it.
Jonathan Puddle 02:39
I have not read a spiritual reflection about grandmothers before.
Kat Armas 02:44
Really? It's your first one. I mean, I don't think many people have. Yeah, but I'm so happy that you are and I'm hoping you know that it's having you reflect on your grandmothers whether biological or not.
Jonathan Puddle 02:56
It is, it certainly is. Both of my grandmothers were women of faith. There's a lot of Christian faith, like I think in some directions five or six generations in my family. So I come from a long line of various different Protestants. And, and they're they were really formative for me, but I hadn't, I haven't often been given reason to think about that.
Kat Armas 03:23
Right.
Jonathan Puddle 03:24
Or to think about just I guess, like the the theological impact of their not just their teaching, which is like the obvious, but I guess like their lived embodiment of what they believe. I'd love to hear just at the high level a little bit about what this is to you, what Abuelita Faith is and what brought you to, to birth this thing?
Kat Armas 03:48
Yeah, well, I think what you just described is part of it, right? I think so many of our grandmothers and our abuelitas have been overlooked because of how I mentioned in the book of whether it be you know, their gender, or their socioeconomic status, or whatever it is, you know, my grandmother wasn't formally educated. And I think that that is a big part of it, right? So many of our grandmothers were not formally educated, they didn't have that opportunity. And so, you know, in Western culture, we're sort of, you know, taught or trained to look for the folks who have the, quote, unquote, traditional form of knowledge. You know, and that is, as far as theologically goes, that is formal theological education, you know, and so, that's where we've been trained to find or learn the most about God. And in my experiences, you know, once I stepped into the world of formal theological education, I think that's where I felt the most distant from God, you know, because so much of what I was learning or who I was learning from was so separate from my lived experience. And so, you know, so different than how, you know what was taught to me as the norm was not my norm growing up. And so it made me question very much, you know, my, my upbringing, my experiences who I am my cultural background and my ethnicity, it had me questioning, "Well, well, then what's my place here? You know, what does God have to offer me? Or what do I have to offer to my community?" And so yeah, so I think that that's sort of where this this book idea or just this, you know, general, just life existential crisis, you know, that I began wrestling with this sort of Abuelita Faith is, you know. Once I was raised Catholic, and then once I transitioned to Protestantism, and like I said, and began formal seminary education, I began to question my grandmother's salvation, you know, I really thought, Oh, my goodness, she's not saved, but yet I had decades of memories of her committed to the church and committed to, you know, to her community, you know, and then so that's where I began reflecting. Wait a minute, you know, I learned the most about God, growing up in informal spaces, not from, you know, the white men behind the pulpits in the classrooms, but you know, around the dinner table with my grandmother and, and watching her sew and all of these embodied experiences, and that's where I learned the most about God. And so I wanted to invite folks to wrestle with that, too, you know, who who is unnamed, that you have been formed by, you know, and so anyway, I'm really glad that you have been yeah, wrestling with that.
Jonathan Puddle 06:32
Yeah, thank you. You mentioned like, ways of being and knowledge, forms of knowledge, right. I wasn't something that I guess I had had a lot to really think about until I read last year, the year before I read Saving the Gospel from the Cowboys, by Richard Twiss. And, and part of his whole thesis is the format of this thesis is not functional, outside of an empirical context, outside of this ivory, academic, White Tower. The ways that we teach, the ways that we know... and so he's like, even even playing the white man's knowledge game...
Kat Armas 07:14
Right.
Jonathan Puddle 07:15
...is this problem that we have? And, and I thought that was that is opened my mind to start hearing and seeing some of these things and realizing, oh, yeah, there's all these different ways of knowing and of being.
Kat Armas 07:31
Right. Yeah, no, I think that that's key, actually, you know, that's what I'm really trying to get at in Abuelita Faith is, is that there are alternate ways of knowing and being in the world, you know, and I think that that's, you know, when we, when we talk about decolonizing, you know, I know that that's become a buzzword, you know, it's kind of thrown around, but when I, in my writing of Abuelita Faith, I wanted to wrestle with the notion of decolonization. But, and obviously, there's different ways you can do that. But I, the way that I wanted to wrestle with that is, you know, what is knowledge? And who is wise? And who gets to say, right, you know, who gets to say, what is wisdom? Or what is knowledge? And so I'm sort of wrestling with this, you know, even biblical ideal of idea of wisdom, which, you know, if you read, there's just so many different ways that you can understand or apply wisdom. And I think that yeah, it was it was fun to wrestle with that in the Bible. And then also just wrestle with that in across history with our our abuelitas and our grandmothers and how they engage with them in their everyday life.
Jonathan Puddle 08:36
Yeah, so can I read from you? Yeah, this is your this. When you're unpacking the, the concept, "Abuelita theology stems from the reality that in Latine religious culture, matriarchal figures such as abuelitas preserve and pass along religious traditions, beliefs, practices, and spirituality. They function as live in ministers, particularly because the privilege to receive formal religious instruction is often unavailable, thus abuelitas are the functional priestesses, and theologians in our familias." And please forgive my bungled...
Kat Armas 09:14
No, you did great.
Jonathan Puddle 09:15
Spanish. That was really interesting to me. Because at the very at the very outset, when I began to read the book, I thought, okay, you're presenting an argument, you're, you're, you're suggesting that we need to pay attention to this thing: pur grandmothers and especially, I think especially, my, my, my sense is that you are, are offering something here for other members of Latin culture, but also indigenous groups and so on, right? Like, you could just be writing to white people or be a white person writing what blah, blah, blah, but you are offering something authentically from yourself to your own community. But not are you just... I realized In that sentence, I'm like, oh, oh, she's not just trying to tell me that, like advocating for this thing... this is what's already happening.
Kat Armas 10:08
Right. Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 10:09
This is just normal life.
Kat Armas 10:10
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 10:11
So let's let's stop ignoring it or throwing it under the rug or devaluing the, the work that's already happening and been happening for all of human history.
Kat Armas 10:23
Yeah, no, that's so good. And I'm so glad that that you, you know, thought about that, or kind of got that, because that is one of my arguments is just, you know, women, abuelitas, you know, our grandmothers, they've been doing the thing, you know, in, whether it's been in the background or whatever, you know, they've been doing the thing forever. And I think we're the ones that are in by we, I just sort of mean dominant culture, in general, dominant culture is the one that's been missing out, you know, because this has been happening. And those are sort of the stories that I'm trying to bring up, right, the stories of women who have, you know, used their bodies and their art as protest or have, you know, there's dozens, I mean, countless women throughout history. And so I try and, you know, bring in these stories and these anecdotes and say, See, look, you know, and another thing that I sort of bring up is this idea of, you know, inviting, you know, marginalized women or whatever, to the table. And I'm saying, no, they have their own tables, you know, like, my grandmother had her own table. It was her table, she set it every day, and we were invited to sit at her table. And, you know, and she was the host, and we were the guests, and I think that that's really important. Again, thinking about this idea of decolonization, I say that it's like a decolonized notion of hospitality, you know, Christianity, we love to talk about hospitality, but, but it's very much so that we are always the hosts. Where the dominant culture is always the host. And exactly, like you said, No, I mean, people have their own tables, you know, they've had them forever. Women have been doing the things, you know, protesting, like, like I mentioned, being subversive, fighting for their communities. Yeah, and for themselves, you know, all these things for centuries since the beginning of time. And, and it's just a matter of us, you know, turning our gaze and our focus and paying attention.
Jonathan Puddle 12:18
Yeah, that's so good. I can feel internally, this process that I've come to identify as learning... being corrected in my thinking, and even just as you say that, like, the I'm laughing at my own self, and my, you know, attempts to be a gentle wise listener, and it's like, oh, yeah, invite people to the table, you know, and, yeah, OR just bear in mind...
Kat Armas 12:49
Right!
Jonathan Puddle 12:50
...that have been doing the thing. And I can feel my body reacting to that truth.
Kat Armas 12:57
Well, I mean, that's great. And I think it's part of it is just, you know, ummm... learning how to be a good guest. You know, I think that's something that I I've been wrestling with a lot. You know, how can we be good guests?
Jonathan Puddle 13:07
I don't think Christians... OK, sorry, for interrupting you....
Kat Armas 13:09
Oh, no....
Jonathan Puddle 13:10
I don't think Evangelical, especially American influenced Christians have any concept of what it means to be a guest.
Kat Armas 13:18
No! Not at all. I mean, if you think about it, throughout history, what do Christians know about being guests? You know, I mean, you think about, you know, the colonial period, and folks just arrived in places that weren't their own and just made themselves you know, I mean, they didn't learn from anyone or try to or... You know, we think about it now. And when we think of, again, the dominant culture, it doesn't know how to be a guest. And again, this perpetuated by Christianity. Christianity, you know, we want to be the heroes and we want to be the, you know, evangelizers and the ones to offer the good news. And we don't ever think of how we can receive or what we can learn or just sitting at someone else's feet and learning from their wisdom. You know, we think that Christianity or Christians in general, obviously, I'm generalizing, but, you know, for so long, we think that only we have something to offer the world, right. But yeah, no, I don't think that... I think being a good guest is is something that that we would do well, and by we again, just the dominant culture would do well in learning and embracing.
Jonathan Puddle 14:25
Okay, yes, that's so real. Wow. Yeah, and you know, right when even when someone comes to your home, and is a weird guest, or they come in and they assert themselves, or they start...
Kat Armas 14:38
Right!
Jonathan Puddle 14:38
...commenting on things, you know, and I've a couple of friends that I'm thinking of specifically, who do this. And I can tell as an empath that they are themselves uncomfortable and do not know how to conduct themselves, and the only way they have is to assert their dominance.
Kat Armas 14:55
Right.
Jonathan Puddle 14:57
But yeah, it's like, it's so weird. That's such a good point. Okay, so paint a picture for me, if you would, of some of the things that we miss out on, when we're not paying attention to this format of faith and this way of being.
Kat Armas 15:14
Yeah, I mean, so much, right. But I would say, the main thing that I think about is, is, and I mentioned this in the book, I think that we, we talk about being made in the image of God in an individual way, right? Like I'm made in the image of God, you're made in the image of God. But something that I had been reflecting on, as I was working on this book is how the image of God is also collective, you know? We, each of us, you know, carry a piece of the image of God or however you want to phrase, I don't think anybody fully understands what that means. But all of us together in our own, you know, the fullness of what it means to be human, and all of our distinct cultures and all of our distinct, you know, everything. I think together, we get a fuller image of you know, who God is. And I think that, you know, when we... yeah aren't seeing not just the image of God individually in a person, because it's easy to say that we see that, but what can we learn about God, just in who God is, from folks who who are just trying to survive? And I think that that's something that I'm, I really try and lean into in Abuelita Faith, is this idea of survival and how survival is in and of itself a holy endeavor. You know, for most folks across the world. I mean, that is just the daily struggle, is what am I going to eat today? What am I going to feed my child today? There's no five year plan, or there's no, you know, it's just literally as I mentioned, in Abuelita Faith, it's, it's the Lord's Prayer. You know, give me my daily bread, like what I need today, my strength, my food, my sustenance today, to make it till tomorrow, you know, and then there's something sacred and intimate, and holy about that, right? Just in and of itself, it doesn't have to be Christianized in the way that we, you know, it's just, that's what it is. And when I read the Bible, you know, as I was working on this book, and researching scripture, I noticed that that is most of the stories in Scripture, right? Like, folks just trying to live, you know, and, and these stories are, again, hyper-spiritualized. And they're, you know, the story of Ruth and Naomi, and oh, and Boaz, Boaz is Jesus or whatever, I mean. But it's just kind of like, well, it's also a story of two women that really are just trying to, you know, ensure that they don't die, you know, from being widows, and that, you know, that they're taken care of. And they enact their agency and their creativity and their ingenuity, in order to just live and, you know, they are called blessed. I mean, there's a whole book written about them, they are in the genealogy of Jesus, I mean, these are not just passing stories, you know. Same thing with the story of Esther or so many women, you know, their struggle to survive is a holy and sacred endeavor. And, and it is noticed and blessed and whatever you want to say, by God, right. And so that's something that I think that, that those of us with varying levels of privilege, we really, really miss out on. What can we learn about life and God and how God interacts with people and how and how God is intimately in the details of, of just survival? And we don't know much of that, because many of us, you know, carry varying levels of privilege. And so it kind of cushions us from really experiencing that intimate, you know, connection with the Divine.
Jonathan Puddle 18:38
Yes, yes. That's so true. Even you just you mentioned the Lord's Prayer, right, I was the other thing beyond daily bread that just popped into my mind, as you said, that was, like, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others, right? Like so many of us in in more privileged positions... who's trespassing against us, man? Like, oh, "Because because I'm, I'm a Christian in a western nation, and I feel like I'm being marginalized." And all...
Kat Armas 19:06
Right..
Jonathan Puddle 19:07
And I'm like, like, when so many people on the margins have a boot on their neck, like, yeah, oh, yeah. There's that guy who rapes me. There's that guy who murdered my son. Like...
Kat Armas 19:19
Right.
Jonathan Puddle 19:20
The the closeness to evil being perpetrated against you.
Kat Armas 19:26
Right.
Jonathan Puddle 19:26
Feels so much closer than I think...
Kat Armas 19:29
yeah,
Jonathan Puddle 19:30
...most many folks like myself are familiar with.
Kat Armas 19:35
Right? No, that's good. I think that that's true. Yeah, and I think that that's something that in the beginning of my book, I talk I share about Rigoberta Menchú and she's a K'iche' Mayan indigenous activist. And I just love her story because it sort of reminds me of what you were saying that she ended up leaving her community and her people in literally fighting against the colonizers or the oppressors in Guatemala and her indigenous people. And it was through her reading the Bible and reading the story of David and Goliath and saying, wait a minute, we are literally David. And the colonizers, right, the government who was trying to exterminate the indigenous people to take their land, you know, is Goliath. And so that was sort of like, what motivated her to lead her people in, you know, to take up arms against, you know, the colonizers. And I think that, yeah, as you mentioned, you know, there are so many things that we are shielded from, those of us who carry varying levels of privilege, ummm.. and that and we don't understand the Bible in the same way, even. You know, we don't understand the stories within it. That's why we, you know, like to say, you know, hyper spiritualize, or over spiritualize, so many of the stories because we have to in order to connect with them, you know. But as I mentioned in Abuelita Faith so many of these stories are about our grandmothers, you know, they're about, you know, when our grandmothers read the story of the, you know, the woman at the well, they say, "Oh, yeah, that's me, that's my story." You know, when they read the story of the Canaanite mother, who is seeking, you know, healing for her daughter, and she talks back to Jesus, I mean, those are the stories of our grandmothers and most grandmothers across the globe, you know, that we, you know, we have to sort of figure out what this story means. But for many folks the, you know, it just means it is what it is. And it's it's real life, and it's lived experience.
Jonathan Puddle 21:33
That's so amazing. Yes. Because of course, like, Okay, is it Elijah, or Elisha and the widow, with the
Kat Armas 21:40
Oh, yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 21:41
This is our last bread and right, our last flower, and we're gonna die tomorrow. And I've only ever been told that story in the context of like, "Becoming a man of great faith who raises people from the dead!" Like, very charismatic upbringing here. Um, if you're not raising three dead people every day, you're not a good Christian. And so yeah, but like, that's the context that I've been taught that story. And that's always the connection point is like, have great faith! And yet, I'm hearing you say, the majority of humans, especially women on this planet, would be like, No, that's sorry about not dying.
Kat Armas 22:19
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 22:20
That's a story about last Monday.
Kat Armas 22:22
Right, right. Yeah. No, it's funny that you mentioned that because I think of that in the same, I mentioned the story of Tabitha and Peter, Peter raises Tabitha from the dead. And I just think it's so funny. I mean, it's not funny, but I just think it's so interesting that when you read any translation, literally any Bible translation, and you know how they have the chapter, the paragraph or chapter sort of headlines,
Jonathan Puddle 22:47
Somebody chose to insert...
Kat Armas 22:48
Right, exactly. Like, you know, whoever, you know, just decided to write okay, this is what this chapter is about, you know. And if you read... right before Tabitha's story, I mean, it always says like, "Peter resurrects someone" or something, you know, it's about Peter resurrecting someone, right? And when I read that story, I mean, that's the last thing that I'm paying attention to, is Peter doing anything. I mean, I read that story, and you have this woman who clearly was, you know, this, this person is very important person in her community because, A) she was resurrected. I mean, how many people in the New Testament besides Jesus are resurrected? Like three? So why is she resurrected? She's called a disciple. There are people by her bedside weeping. And all we know about this woman is that she made clothes for her community. And that is, I mean, that is a sacred, what I argue is a sacred thing among many communities across the globe, you know, making art, embodied theology. I mean, those are all beautiful things. And yeah, I mean, the point of that story, in many Christian circles is oh, look, Peter resurrected someone just like Jesus, you know. But no, you know, if we even read a couple chapters in Acts right before that story, we know of the whole debacle between the Greek speaking Jews and the widows that were being overlooked. And all of this was happening. And here we have Tabitha, you know, a couple cities down the road doing the very thing that people were neglecting to do, but yet she's overlooked. You know, it's all about Peter and what you know, so it's all about "Oh, you know, let's be like, Peter," I don't know, you know, how about let's be like Tabitha. You know, uh, yeah. So I thought about that as you were mentioning that story, because that's what we do so much with so many of these stories.
Jonathan Puddle 24:34
You, you mentioned the, the clothing and you you've got a fair bit about the creation of clothing.
Kat Armas 24:41
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 24:42
Talk a little bit about that kind of community, tactile spirituality. Because I feel like that's something that okay, like, I'm like this picture of globalism. I've, I've lived in five countries. I don't live in the same country that I was born and none of my children live in the same country they were born. And I can only talk to my mother through Zoom, or Facebook or whatever, and all my grandmothers are dead. And I feel I do feel this disconnection at an ancestral level at times from place and space and family.
Kat Armas 25:15
Right.
Jonathan Puddle 25:16
And I feel this, there's a longing when I read you say some of these stories, talk a little bit about that...
Kat Armas 25:23
Yeah, no. And I think, you know, it's, it's, you know, very common, right, like, your story is very common. I think we live in a globalized world. And, you know, even I, I don't live in Miami, where I was raised. And I've never lived in Cuba, you know, which is something? Yeah, that what I talk about in Abuelita Faith, it is this idea that, you know, we're always connected to land and we're always connected to place. And while I don't, I while I've never lived in Cuba, I do believe that Cuba lives within me, right. It is a part of me. And you know, and I'm pregnant right now. And I believe that it's gonna be, you know, it's a part of my, my child, you know. Because, as we read in Scripture place is so important. I mean, the story of the Israelites is all about place and land, you know. But to answer your question specifically about, you know, the whole sewing, and then this embodied theology, I mean, that's something that, for me, growing up, you know, that was a huge part of my upbringing is just watching my grandmother make clothes, you know. And of course, you know, as a child, I never thought of that as a theological or spiritual thing. But as I reflected on it, you know, the older that I got, and the more that I was reflecting so much, again, just scripture and embodied theology, and was really the story of Tabitha that sparked that in me and seeing, you know, her story and thinking, Wait a minute, all we know about this, quote unquote, disciple who is resurrected, is that she made clothes for the widows in her community. And that tells me that that is a sacred and holy and beautiful act, and that there's something about that, that we need to pay attention to. And as I'm reading that, I thought, that's, that's my grandmother's story. You know, as I mentioned, like, these are the stories of so many of our grandmothers. And the story of Tabitha is the story of my grandmother, in many ways. And so reflecting on her life, and how, you know, she was so intentional with her, her clothes making and how she created entire worlds with her hands with a needle and a thread and how, you know, she created community within our, you know, within her home, you know, with the women in her in our neighborhood, or just, you know, in our community, you know, and she created this, this, this feeling in this space in the sacred space. And I believe that that is something again, that is overlooked, how women have been using their bodies throughout history, in ways that not only honor God, but that reflect, you know, the creativity of God and reflect the intentionality of God, you know, you know, we see that I kind of point that back to even God creating clothes in the garden for Adam and Eve, you know, that was such an intimate and intentional act. And these are ways that I think that many women throughout history have connected with, with God and have connected with their communities. And, and we have so much to learn about a sort of embodied, lived way of being and knowing that is sacred.
Jonathan Puddle 28:19
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Kat Armas 29:01
I also reflect on women who have used the you know, their their hands and their bodies. You know, there's a group of women there called the arpilleristas in Chile, and they literally created with their hands, they sewed protest signs about, you know, the government was taking and people were disappearing, their family members were disappearing, there was so much injustice and these women, you know, were using their skills and their passions and their gifts and their art, you know, to protest against the injustices that were happening, you know, in their communities. And so I think that that's not something to be overlooked. And I think that you know, if we believe that God gives us gifts and talents and passions, you know, to do good in the world. And that's one of them. So yeah, so that's something that has been very beautiful for me to reflect on both in in you know, history and in my community but also in Scripture because that is something that is so much in the Bible.
Jonathan Puddle 29:56
Totally. That's so interesting. I love that. I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about my grandmother. That was my maternal grandmother I was a lot closer to, and we often lived with with them. And, and it's just funny and I'm trying to think is this just cognitive bias because you're saying this to me but, but so much of what I think about is all surrounding her body, and high, highly physical. Partly, she was paralyzed in one leg. And so she, she wore a brace. And so she had a shuffling sound that was kind of follow her around, there's this tactility. And I remember, I remember all these, I remember her standing at the fax machine, getting the prayer list and... Sending prayer requests on to the next people. I remember her teaching me how to how to make little envelopes. And we would, I was just telling my eight year old this, we would cut out calendars and take the photo and then and then I would fold and cut them into an envelope. And I would sell envelopes to all the neighborhood people. And my grandmother used to make, I don't know if you know those cards, where it's like you stamp, you stamp the card, and you sprinkle that kind of stuff on it, and you kind of melt it.
Kat Armas 30:42
Wow. Mhmmm, I think so.
Jonathan Puddle 31:18
Some kind of crafty art thing. But this again, my grandmother used to always, I can picture my grandmother ironing, she used to come to our house and iron all of our laundry. And it's like, and it's so funny, because at the time, none of that was meaningful to me as like,
Kat Armas 31:31
Right.
Jonathan Puddle 31:32
Especially as like a young boy, none of that seemed meaningful to me. But as I think back on it now, I mean, more than more than anything. My core formative memory of my grandmother is of her holding me, at 15 or 16, when we were, they were selling the family vacation home. And it was last time I was going to see it.
Kat Armas 31:57
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 31:57
And I was so emotional, and didn't know as a teenage boy how to unlock all that. And she just came and held me.
Kat Armas 32:06
Wow.
Jonathan Puddle 32:07
I Just remember sobbing on her shoulder.
Kat Armas 32:12
That's so beautiful.
Jonathan Puddle 32:12
And feeling kind of embarrassed, because I had my buddies over there, you know, but I'm like this. There's some something that now I can see the sacred spirituality of all of her simple life.
Kat Armas 32:23
Oh, yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 32:24
You know.
Kat Armas 32:25
Oh, yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 32:26
My mother says, I remember my mother said to me that, that her mom lived vicariously through her through her children and her grandchildren. That she didn't have any career after her first child was born. And she just, her focus was on children and family and community. And, and value we have for that?
Kat Armas 32:46
Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing all of that about your grandmother. And I think that you're absolutely right. I mean, we we miss out when we don't sit and reflect on a sacredness of those moments and the sacredness of, yeah, just her body and her holding you and her being there. And all those, again, those intentional and intimate details of even, you know, folding an envelope and standing in front of a fax machine. I mean, I believe and sort of what I'm arguing in Abuelita Faith is that's where God is, you know, that's where God is moving and working. And, yeah, and doing all the things you know, in those sacred, seemingly ordinary, but not at all ordinary. Or yeah, they are ordinary, but not at all, not sacred, right? Moments. And I think that that's something that, you know, what a beautiful thing for our spiritual life, when we can reflect on that and recognize that, man, that's where God, you know, God is intimately acquainted. Yeah, with our grandmothers in those moments, and just in life in general. And I think that that's something that has been so beautiful for me, you know, as I reflect on this Abuelita Faith and how I just try and live out an Abuelita Faith in my everyday life, you know. It's funny, because I am, you know, formally educated, you know, I have two masters and I'm getting, I mean, I'm getting more degrees. Next year, you know, I'm starting, continuing my theological education next year, but, but still, you know, even in that I'm still trying to everyday fight against the, "Well that that's not the most important," you know, those moments where I was mostly educated or formed theologically, were in those, you know, in front of the fax machine moments, or, you know, in my grandmother's arms as I wept moments. Yeah, that's where I see God. And so I think that that is, it's incredible to be able to shift, you know, sort of our focus and see life in that way.
Jonathan Puddle 34:50
Yes, I love that. Okay, I have a question and this, this is a bit more of a tender question. And even in asking it, I don't even like, I don't even like it. But I'll explain...
Kat Armas 35:02
OK.
Jonathan Puddle 35:04
What, how do we interface this with grandmother trauma, or mother trauma, where these figures in our life have also been, in some cases, the authors of great pain and great toxicity in our lives? And that one of the reasons I don't like the question is like, just because so let me just like it's not as if all the other teachers that we've had have not also traumatized us, right. It's like, please don't hear anybody listening me saying, suggesting that grandmothers or mothers have the market cornered on trauma, because we can talk all day, as we have on this show before, for about abusive men. But if we are leaning into this, I know for some folks that may be a stumbling block.
Kat Armas 35:52
No, that's a great question. And that's something that, yeah, I think about a lot and I wrestle with a lot. And so you know, even in my own culture, you know, machismo is is a huge part of my culture. And so something that I mentioned in Abuelita Faith is this idea that, you know, an Abuelita theology is often called a kitchen theology, right? Because it's formed in the kitchen. And you know, when, and that's a beautiful thing, right? When family members are sitting around the table, and it's like this beautiful, informal, communal, familial thing. But at the same time, it's a kitchen theology, because that's often where our grandmothers are relegated to: the kitchen. And so that is their space, in many ways, because they're, it's, they're forced to be there, or they have no other option than to be there. And so, things like patriarchy, and machismo, which our grandmothers perpetuate, right, like not saying that that's not something, you know, my grandmother, yeah, very much held to traditional and cultural norms. And even still, to this day, you know, there are many things like body shaming, and, and just different things that our grandmothers because of whether it was the the generation they come from, or whatever the culture and all these things. So that's 100% a part of the tension, right, when thinking about this Abuelita Theology, I don't know if you've read. Yolanda Pierce, Dr. Yolanda Pierce's In My Grandmother's House. But it's sort of a sister book to mine in a way and she is speaking from the perspective of black women. And this is something that she talks a lot about, the reason why I brought it up is because her and I had a conversation about both of our books, and sort of, you know, kind of dialoguing with this idea, this tension of survival and how survival is complicated. And survival, while it can be holy and beautiful and sacred, and and I believe that it is, like, I believe that just the struggle to survive is holy and sacred, but at the same time survival forces folks to do and, and just be and exist in ways that yeah... that that they may not necessarily want to, or things that may not necessarily be, yeah, helpful? You know, I think of the story of Tamar and how, you know, she was forced to, you know, put her body in situations that, I don't know if she, you know, maybe wanted to or was proud of? I don't know, you know, but that's because, you know, for many women across history, survival forces folks to do things that make many other people uncomfortable. And so when I think of this tension, and I think about it again, in my own life, you know, as I reflect on on my story, and obviously, you know, my book wasn't focused on that aspect of the story, but there are times where I, I had to wrestle with that. And yeah, and just wrestling with with the reality that survival is complicated, and we can't ignore or just, you know, brush over that reality and say, Oh, well, you know, it's fine. She was, you know. No! But I think it's, it's important to sit in that tension, sit in the tension of, you know, it can be beautiful, but it can be really hard and really, yeah, not beautiful in many ways. But, but part of, you know, what I try and lean into in Abuelita Faith is that tension is, you know, Christianity likes to gloss over things or make things you know, forgetting the word, sorry, pregnancy brain! But platitudes, you know, we like to jump to platitudes or, but life is is lived in that very complicated tension of beauty and pain and hardship, and you know, all the things. And so I think that it's important to name it and so I'm glad that you did, because I think that that's part of it is naming it and sitting in that complexity.
Jonathan Puddle 39:41
That's good. Yeah, that's really helpful. Friends, I highly recommend this book to you. Abuelita Faith: What Women on the Margins Teaches about Wisdom, Persistence and Strength, by Kat Armas. And what is that, it means like it's like, abuela is like the formal... Right. ...Grandmother.
Kat Armas 39:59
Yes. Abuela is the word for grandmother in Spanish. And then in Spanish we add "ita" or "ito" you know, to the end of words. And that's, excuse me, sort of like a term of endearment. And so, you know, it's like, it literally means my little grandmother, but it's just, you know, it just sort of means like my beloved grandmother or, yeah, something along those lines.
Jonathan Puddle 40:19
Right, So I'm gonna say like, Nana, like, this is like
Kat Armas 40:22
Yeah.
Jonathan Puddle 40:22
the difference between like, grandmother and like Nana or granny.
Kat Armas 40:25
Right, right, right.
Jonathan Puddle 40:26
And obviously, whatever, translates for each of you. Yeah, really, really enjoying this Kat. Where can folks find more on you? I know you've got a podcast yourself.
Kat Armas 40:35
Yeah, so my podcast is called The Protagonistas or The Protagonistas. And I speak to women of color in church leadership and theology. And you can find me on Instagram or on Twitter primarily @Kat_Armas, or my website KatArmas.com. I try and you know, update with things I've written or worked on. So if you want to check that out as well.
Jonathan Puddle 40:57
Kat, would you pray for us? As we, I guess, yes, seek to to listen, and be reoriented in this really kind of sacred, family, beautiful way.
Kat Armas 41:09
Yeah, definitely. God, we are so thankful for just opportunities to talk with one another and opportunities to learn and to be challenged and to grow and to investigate what it means to be people of God or people that are seeking to bring forth your kingdom on earth as it is in heaven, as you mentioned. And so we just ask that you would allow us to give us eyes to see folks who have been doing the thing for so long, who have have their own tables, who are struggling to survive, who are living... their lived experiences are poorly understood sacred moments and endeavors. And yeah, there's so much to learn, or we have so much to learn from folks on the margins, our abuelitas, our grandmothers. And yeah, would you give us eyes to see that. And we're so thankful for the opportunity to be able to chat about these things. And we ask for your wisdom in alternate ways of being and knowing, that we learn from our grandmothers in that way. And it's in Jesus' wonderful name I pray, amen.
Jonathan Puddle 42:23
Amen. Thank you, Kat. Friends, go hit the show notes at JonathanPuddle.com. You'll find the transcription for this episode, you will find links to order Kat's book, Abuelita Faith: What Women on the Margins Teach us about Wisdom, Persistence and Strength. And it's a great, great book. I really recommend it. I've been learning and growing. And she is so well... it's just such, it is such an international perspective on on our Nanas and grannies, and, and abuelitas, and it's really cool. It's definitely invited me into something, a new angle on my faith. And on multi generational faith. I think this is something that the church is wrestling with. I know folks in my church who are elderly and are feeling like they don't know how to serve. They don't know what their role is anymore. And so I really think this is important. So head over to JonathanPuddle.com. Click podcast, you'll find the show notes, order Kat's book and go follow her on Instagram, Twitter, everywhere else. Alright friends, I'm going to take a break for a couple of weeks. I've got episodes in the can, excited to share stuff with you. But I am traveling. I am leaving this week to go to the UK for a few weeks. I'm visiting a friend and I'm getting started on the new writing project. So we'll take a little pause on The Puddcast. But don't worry, we'll be back very soon. I'm thrilled, my next guest shares his journey of being diagnosed autistic, and how that changed his life and how we can do better for our autistic brothers and sisters. So that'll be on the show in a few weeks. Alright my friends. God bless. Grace and peace to you all. We'll talk soon